The Self Preservation E4: Misunderstandings and Correlations
Hey guys, so it's been a while.
Sorry for the delay, I have been dealing with some job issues on my end lol. However, now things are slightly more stable so I would like to get back to writing more consistently. I've been working on an "How to Type Yourself in Enneagram Subtypes" blog post, but it's been difficult. Mainly because while I'm comfortable speaking on SP4s, I feel largely inadequate to speak about other types.
Additionally, I also have come across many online discussions that persist that SP4s can only be First Emotion in Psychosophy (which is a take that I think is missing crucial information). Whether this is because people assume that E4s automatically are externally emotional people, I don't know. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
In this post, I will also use some of my own personal anecdotes to support the point I'm making. However, it is not going to be the key point of this post. If you want more info, I made another blog post going over Naranjo's E4 book, and following my life in order to demonstrate a IRL example of the type. If you want to read that, I really do recommend it (it has at least helped me sort out my life a little).
First, I would like to address what the most important aspect of the Self-Preservation E4 is. Lots of types can suffer, have painful lives, but it is all a matter of how it is internalized, not just based on outside observations. There are plenty of people who have some of the most tragic stories, and despite it keep up a more stoic facade (such as Mikasa from Attack on Titan whom is often typed as an ESI SP4), but are not Self-Preservation E4s. This is because, like with any and all enneagram subtypes, there is a very specific set of criteria that seperates each from one another. You can't just look at external traits and come to a conclusion.
A helpful trick I like to employ, is that remove a character/individual from any circumstances that force them to partake in specific behaviours. Place them in a vaccum and give them the choice to pursue anything they want. What is each person/character more likely to do? For example, remove a group of people from a combat zone, where fighting is expected of everyone. Give them free choice. A seemingly united group of soldiers, will likely then split off to pursue their own interests based on their underlying preferences and conditions. Even if two people choose to do similar things, the reasons for doing so may be completely different.
But of course, this requires both knowledge of enneagram, and giving an accuracte character assessment. You need both to come to an accurate typing of a person. Many individuals (including myself) will neglect one side, and will arrive at the wrong conclusion. I have met lots of people who know nothing about the theory, and can justify any typing based on their ignorance. However, at the same time, you can know all the enneagram knowledge in the world, but if you interpret a person and their motivations incorrectly, you are bound to arrive at the wrong result.
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So where do I start?
First, you have to remember that the SP4 is a self-preservation dominant instinct first. This means that the main concern of this individual is going to be needs concerning their resources, security, and safety. Everything they do and prioritize, is going to be as a need to secure what is theirs. Whatever their core enneagram type is, the self-preservation instinct is going to drive their core passions and fixations towards that conclusion.
The core passion and fixation of the Enneagram 4 is envy and melancholy. This equates to the individual having a feeling of lack towards what they have/possess at the moment, usually resulting in them devaluing their personal qualities. This feeling of "lack" stems from what they observe others having or possessing that they do not, which generates envy and resentment. As a result, this will lead to the E4 idealizing a potential future in where they will become a person who possesses everything they now lack, but at the cost of devaluing the present moment. The E4 individual is then going to feel a dissatisfaction of who they are now, which generates melancholy, turning them into people who are pessimistic towards their lot in life. However, they will then use their "lack" to distinguish themselves from others, and will hopefully come across an individual that will accept them for their deficiencies. Their suffering becomes a virtue.
Love, acceptance, and being "seen" are things that the E4 will always be striving for.
So what does this all mean?
The Enneagram 4, then, merging with a dominant self-preservation instinct, is going to be someone who uses their lack to secure resources, namely in their relationships. In comparison to the SX4 and/or SO4, these types are going to be risk-averse. That means actions that jeopardize their security (relationships) are not going to be tolerated. In E4 terms, this means they want to be accepted, and actions that potentially jeopardize that, or make people no longer accept them, are going to be desperately avoided.
This makes the SP4 someone who strongly dislikes risk. Not in the physical sphere (we will get to that in a minute), but in the relational sphere. The E4 deeply prioritizes love and acceptance, and being a self-preservation instinct dominant means that the SP4 ties the amount of love and acceptance they receive as being "safe" and "secure" in their life. These are types that want to make sure they are well taken care-of, and are not suspectible to going without or taken off-guard. They want to eliminate risk as much as possible.
What is the biggest risk in a relationship? At least in my perspective, it is rejection. Being rejected means you automatically go without the other's love and affection, and for the SP4, this means that their safety is now at risk. Being rejected means the SP4 goes without, and that is their biggest fear. Being vulnerable comes with the risk of possibly being rejected or hurt, which is why vulnerability is one of the biggest tell-tale signs of trust in a relationship.
Being a self-preservation instinct dominant, the SP4 is not going to take too kindly to that risk.
Being emotionally expressive, outwardly authentic according to how they truly feel; these all come with the risk of the people around them not liking what they see. This can lead to rejection, and them no longer being safe, having their resources taken away, the respect they've worked so long to cultivate suddenly gone or forever changed. So what other alternatives can the SP4 use to implicitly ask for the love of others, which does not involve them outwardly expressing their pain and feelings, at the cost of being rejected.
The answer is Tenacity, and being of service to others by going without.
"Tenacity as Currency For Acceptance"
The SP4 uses tenacity (effort, tolerance to pain) as a protective mechanism to secure the love and affection of others. "I am too afraid of asking for help and being rejected, so instead, I am going to make people love and accept me by demonstrating how much pain I can tolerate on their behalf." I am not allowed to complain, ask for help, and demonstrate explicitly how much I am suffering because people might no longer associate me as someone not worth having around. If I am vulnerable, people will now see me as a fraud, and I will be discarded.Being emotionally vulnerable and authentically true to their feelings is like asking an SP4 to stick their hand in a bear-trap. So instead, tenacity, effort and their emotional repression is used as currency in exchange for keeping relational security and comfort. Their suffering and endurance is proof of their worth.
To the SP4, using tenacity as a "covert contract" is a far less risky alternative to demonstrating their true-selves, and being possibly rejected by the people they love. Despite external appearances and stereotypes that posit Self-Preservation E4s as these "sigma" types, I would argue this is far from the truth. These types have a very low amount of self-esteem, and believe themselves as unworthy of being loved by themselves. So they feel the need to earn their love and affection through enduring (and withstanding) punishment, in fear of being abandoned for not being strong enough to do so.
In summary... the Self-Preservation E4 engages in an exercise of risk assessment.
Vulnerability can lead to rejection. You are needlessly putting yourself in harm's way. Why do this?
Instead, Tenacity can more safety net you those resources. Others usually value those who are of use to them, and are less likely to abandon them as a result. There is less risk. If you can demonstrate that you can endure torment in service to the cause of another, they must want to have you around.
Therefore, tenacity (despite the physical and emotional turmoil it inflicts) is the safer option in securing love, affection, and trust than taking the risk in being vulnerable.
The SP4 wants safety and security in their lives, and will suffer in silence as currency in order for others to love/save them. Tenacity is a means to be self-sufficient, and not openly depend on others at the risk of being rejected.
But of course, this means that the suffering of the SP4 comes with the expectation that they will be loved and accepted in return. That means that their service comes with an asterisk. An underlying, selfish expectation that hides the very ugly (and often overlooked) aspect of the conservation E4.
The deepest, most primal part of themselves does not actually care about helping people, despite their seemingly altruistic motivations. They are simply doing so in order to belong, to ensure safety and security in their relationships. By extension, people who receive love and affection, unconditionally, are looked upon with envy and jealousy by the SP4. Why do I need to suffer? When everyone else can just be accepted for who they are? How is that fair? Everyone else must have it so easy.
Self-Preservation E4 Example: Reki - Haibane Renmei (2002)
Reki's Confession to Rekka (Haibane Renmei, Episode 13)
(Start the YouTube Clip at 9:06 - 11:47)
The true depths of the envy and jealousy Reki has towards others she perceives as "having it better" than her is on full display in this clip. When Rakka comes to her aid as a friend, Reki makes it abundantly clear that her intentions from the very start are undeniably selfish, and that she hates herself for it. As a result, she deems herself unworthy to be saved, and that her "emotional stability" and ability to endure were just a ploy to be seen as "good." She, more than anything else, wants to be saved from her suffering, and for people to acknowledge just how much she is hurting inside. It is a contradiction. She wants people to see how much she is suffering for others, but is unable to demonstrate that clearly. She has to resort to ulterior methods in order to secure that affection and understanding, feeling as she is undeserving of being loved by just her being herself.
But despite how angry I felt, I decided to promise my Mom to keep my feelings to myself. I told myself I was doing this for her, but ultimately, I did it because I didn't want one of my only positive relationships in my life being negatively affected. I didn't want to be rejected by her. So I swallowed up my pain, and dealt with it the best way I could. I never told my family, friends, etc. But my self-hatred, resentment of other people, and envy only grew. When the going got tough, my family essentially threw me to the wolves.
As for the physical realm, I got even more careless. I froze my ear completely solid from frostbite because I refused to ask anyone for a ride to work through a blizzard, got double shin-splints on my legs from soccer practice (and refused to take days off to rest), got heat stroke at work which landed me in the hospital, would refuse to take breaks during Muay Thai lessons, etc. It felt like there was this "inner critic" in my mind that kept telling to push through, and that if I stopped, I would be worthless. As a result, I looked for other life paths that encouraged me to find challenges to overcome.
The Argument for 3E > 1E (FVEL > EVFL)
This is where I'm going to create a hot take, I don't think SP4 is compatible with First Emotion (1E).
(a translation of Envidia Abnegados, Odiadores Y Melancolios)
"Not even the feeling of sadness is allowed, so present in this enneatype as an existential climax. He locks his emotions in an inner world that has no expression, to the point that it can be difficult to recognize him as an emotional character."
"The social E4 is the one that turns the rage against itself the most. The sexual E4 is the subtype that most openly expresses anger towards others. The E4 conservation transforms anger into self-demand."
"Faced with this situation, his attitude towards others is to try to hide his sadness and his feeling of inadequacy behind a smile that is often not very credible. He has secrets, he does not dare to open his truth, which he considers despicable."
Rigidity
It is a mental rigidity that finds its correspondence in both a physical and postural rigidity that has to do with a unilateral way of seeing things, self-destructive in favor of the other.
"Regarding the recognition of his limits, it is very difficult for him to recognize them and also express them in front of other people. It cannot be shown with illnesses or limitations, it is a lot of suffering for his narcissism. «If I suffer I am weak, I am contemptible»>. Recognizing a limit can be experienced as a situation of humiliation. This enneatype can show neurotic suffering, but pain and real limits put him in a situation of great danger and vulnerability in front of others. They are showing that they need and that they are dependent.
Dependency puts you at great risk, the person you depend on may fail you, may have other needs, other interests, and before this happens you create all kinds of strategies to manage alone and not show that you need. Dependence on the other exposes the point of maximum vulnerability of E4 conservation. "If I do it alone and I don't ask, I'm not going to run the risk that the other won't help me, won't be there for me."
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It is abdudantly clear that the SP4 is not someone who is self-confident about how their emotions are going to be percieved by others. In fact, they are terrified of being vulnerable. The SP4 values their emotions within the confides of their personal container, but as soon as other people can begin to comprehend and affect it: influence it, it is seen as a potential threat, and should be minimized as much as possible. I would say this falls more in line with Third Emotion (3E) descriptions.
Instead, I would say the SP4 is far more likely to First Physics (1F).
Being a self-preservation dominant, the SP4 is all about securing their safety and stability; being able to take care of themselves (because of the underlying belief that nobody else is going to do it for them). Finances, materials, and having possession of resources will ensure that they will never go completely without, even if everyone abandons them. It is how the SP4, again, minimizes dependency on others. This can make these types stingy with their resources.
In addition to material conditions, the SP4 is overconfident in the physical sphere.
Why? They sort of have to be, if they feel that employing tenacity, enduring punishment, and believing they are capable of withstanding such punishment. Much less it being a far easier alternative than being open emotionally. These are people that are not only going to shrug off physical and mental suffering, but are going to seek it out because it highlights their character to others. Seeking out the path of greatest resistance, and being typed 3F, makes not very much sense. I believe this stems from people automatically associating E4 as being automatically expressive (and focused on authenticity), but fail to look at the underlying mechanisms of the subtype.
Additionally, 1F is also described as being not very in-touch with subleties of the body, and as a result, seeks out "larger" sensory activities. In lower Will placement types, this can lead to gluttony and impulsive behaviour in a search for sensory stimulation. In higher Will, the "objective" of the activity can take priority over the immediate physical effects, which can lead to a sort of overconfidence on physical expenditure. But this inability (or ignoring) of the smaller subtleties tends to make 1F types try to seek out larger stimuli. This fits better with the SP4, who wants others to "see" their capacity to endure large amounts of suffering, without them having to ask for attention themselves. The best way to do that, would be committing to larger displays where more effort is generated.
For example, Naranjo uses T.S. Eliot (The Lawrence of Arabia) as an example of an Self-Preservation E4. Lawrence would throw himself into various trials with very little concern on his physical safety, which he did to win the respect of the people he fought under in the desert.
According to Naranjo,
At this point, it is more credible that the underlying driving force is his dire need to demonstrate value, the only viable way to be accepted and become part of a larger reality (the army and the Arab people) and, at the same time, give yourself the courage you crave. His personal translation of frustration and need into intensity, of passion for the cause, help convey his tragic conception of life: only through extreme effort will he be well loved and accepted.
It is during this first part of the journey that Lawrence, after an extreme effort, realizes that a man from his company has been lost behind. As absurd as it may seem, Lawrence has no doubt that the only action to take is to get back on his horse and go back in search of the missing man. The teammates' attempt to dissuade him from a venture that is at least risky takes the form of the words pronounced by his friend: «It is written».
These words indicate the inevitability of fate, but insinuate the doubt that the dangerousness of the gesture will not lead him to complete the undertaking. But Lawrence points to his head and replies, "I'll see Aqaba! It's written here!" "Nothing is written". Thus he indicates his willpower and returns to himself the paternity of everything. This allows him to return to the rocky desert, recover the lost man and, with a triumphant return to the camp, where after declaring again that nothing is written, he drops to the ground knocked out by exhaustion after devouring himself in the effort and the stubbornness of his gesture.
Far from being insecure in the physical realm, Lawrence is, if anything, overconfident in his ability for his body to persevere, even at the detriment of his health. He is confident, and he is not open to suggestions from others telling what he can and can not do.
Another poignant example was when Lawrence showed his comrades his ability to endure pain by extinguishing a match between his fingers. The trick is, according to Eliot, is "to not mind that it hurts."
This is in contrast to 3F, which are very much in-tune with the most subtle sensations of the body, which makes them particualrly afraid and observent of sickness, ailments, injuries, etc. If you are an individual that is deeply aware of the inner workings of your body, it would not make much sense to throw yourself into constant physical and emotional distress.
As a result. an individual who seeks out suffering, punishment, and pain is not going to be someone who is 3F in my opinion. They are going to be people who seek out activities that provide the greatest demonstrations of tenacity in a given enviornment, no matter the physical and emotional punishment. These demonstrations are, again, seen as yielding far greater returns, than emotional vulnerability.
Correlations: Socionics
The Argument for ESI (ISFP) > EII and IEI
This issue is not as widespread compared to psychosophy, but there are some people I have had discussions with that believe that SP4 also correlates with EII (INFP/ INFj) and IEI (INFJ/ INFp). There are a few issues with this assessment IMO, and I will try to go into more detail on why I think they are flawed.
(The Argument for Extroverted Sensing and Lower Intuition)
The Self-Preservation 4 is an action-oriented individual, that actively compares themselves to the people around them. They tend to not focus so much on idealized concepts, but rather, the situation at hand. The SP4 is someone who seeks out tenacity, hardship, and bottles their emotions/reaction to that negative stimuli in order to generate resistance. That resistance and effort, is then the currency the SP4 uses in order to "purchase" the love and affection of others. This means if they see a course of action that allows them to maximize that effort, they will willingly take it on themselves. This can at times make them very quick decision-makers, but also very impulsive. Whenever they see the path of greatest resistance, they see it as an opportunity to prove their worth.
The point I'm trying to get at is that "meaning" for the SP4 is not a clear-cut thing. It's a gut feeling they have; the feeling propels them into action, but they might have difficulty quantifying it themselves. They are not detached observers of phenomenon, they are active participants because not doing so leaves them alone with their pitiful self-esteem. Again, because they are unable to ask people for love/ acceptance openly, they do so using tenacity/resistance/effort as a covert currency.
According to Naranjo -
Action is its most developed psychic function, consistent with the experience that it is worth neither feeling nor asking many questions about what is happening: it is time to solve, help and collaborate to keep themselves and others alive. We could say that among the most active subtypes in the entire Enneagram, the E4 Conservation is indeed the one who dedicates himself devotedly and efficiently to work, at home and away from home. It is his mission and, at the same time, his identity as a “survivor”.
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So, to me, the Self-Preservation E4 is someone who, while they greatly value intuition, they use it as a motivational force rather than something they "play around with." In their natural state, the SP4 is going to be more comfortable doing rather than waiting around, because that's how they recieve love. So this type is going to value Se/Se > Ni/Ne. AKA, this is going to be a sensing type.
An IEI (INFJ) being Ni base, needs to be detached from the world in order to render their cause-and-effect patterns/predictions more accurate, which is why they are Se suggestive. They need help to propel them to move, and assert their own volition onto the world.
(The Argument for Ne POLR)
To go further, I want to highlight what tenacity is.
Generally, it means to be very determined, to keep a tight grip on something and to not let go, etc. It means once you have made your mind up to do something, that sense of tenacity is not going to let you give up (even if the obstacle is painful or nonsensical). The SP4 uses this effort in order to purchase the love and affection of others, even if it is not effecient, or rational to do so.
Extraverted Intuition (Ne) is the element that is most focused on possibilities, and human potential. Instead of examining an object just by itself, it assess all the potential manifestations of said object. It examines everything that it could be. It also focuses on alternative courses of action. This is a very valuable gift, that types such as the EII (INFP) and IEI (INFJ) are exceptionally skilled at, having 3-dimensional Ne (Creative and Ignoring respectively).
In contrast, the ESI strongly dislikes people advising them alternative courses of action, or alternative explanations of behaviour. This is because they have Ne POLR. As a result, ESIs can be notoriously stubborn, unbending, and unwilling to change their minds about something (especially matters concerning people, their abilities, and their personal relationships).
I would like to propose that it is this Ne POLR element, that assists the SP4 in not diverting from a course of action or individual, even if the consequences are detrimental to their emotional/physical well-being. They do not change their minds, and will quickly brush aside alternatives. Combined with Ni mobilizing, this lack of "considering alternatives" makes the ESI stubborn, but it will also make them the very last person to give up. Ne POLR is what helps the ESI from backing off a painful path (even if they very well should), and it generates the resistance that the Self-Preservation E4 uses as currrency to secure affection.
Therefore, IMO a type such as the EII (INFP) and IEI (INFJ) that has strong intuition, are going to be far less likely pidgeon-hole themselves into an unfavourable outcome (all because of the need to maximize effort). In addition, the EII strongly dislikes people using force/volitional pressure to get things moving, and would much rather move at their own pace (Se POLR).
(The Argument for Si Demonstrative)
One of the key aspects of an SP4 (that is often ignored) is their propensity towards self-care. Why? Isn't the SP4 a type that actively seeks out pain?
Well, this is because the SP4 is a self-preservation instinct first and foremost, they are deeply concerned with having their affairs in order. However, they deeply fear becoming dependent on others, and losing their autonomy. If the SP4 becomes dependent on others, they then run the risk of losing everything if that relationship ceases to be. Therefore, the Self-Preservation 4 holds a very pessimistic view towards people, is insanely picky with who they get close to, and strives to take care of themselves because they hold the view that nobody else will.
Being a Self-Preservation Intinct dominant, the SP4 is concerned with maintaining the physical security, knows what they want (to the extent of becoming impulsive spenders), and creating a sort of "comfort zone" they can always fall back to. This is to balance out their need to generate effort and tenacity, once they commit, they have themselves to heal and bring them back from "the brink" in order to do it again the next day. As such, the SP4 is going to be very confident in being able to get their needs met, as a result of belieivng that nodody else will do it for them. They need to find ways to "sustain the effort and sacrifice."
So to me, the SP4 has to have a strong use of Introverted Sensing (Si), the ability to access, create, and recreate positive physical states and experiences. It can't be the core focus of their life, of course, because producing strainful tenacity and effort in order to secure love and acceptance for their defeciencies is their modus-operandi. They will break themselves in order to prove their worth for others, because they lack the self-love to love themselves unconditionally. But when the effort is over, and nobody is watching them, they are more than comfortable engaging in relaxing routines. This indicates that with an SP4, introverted sensing is not a valued function per-se, but it is continously running in the background to make sure "the ship keeps afloat" in the water, so-to-speak.
They are skilled at taking care of other's needs, and finding small ways to achieve a sort of "peace" with themselves. However, it always comes second through their need to earn merit through work.
According to Naranjo -
Caregiver of others; helpful and welcoming
The E4 conservation lives the relationship with others, friends and family with a great spirit of service and care. In this approach he finds fulfillment, a sense of worth, and a practical way to express love. He cares for others both materially and emotionally, though often risking taking on more than is necessary.
In service he finds an identity, a place that makes him worthwhile and allows belonging.
Stoic, little hedonistic
The attitude of earning merit through work leaves little room for fun and pleasure, dimensions with which this character is unfamiliar. Pleasure is felt by always finding satisfaction in doing, but directed towards something (a goal) or someone. It is difficult to be aware of what increases the happiness of one without including the other, in fact this character is not clear about what makes him feel good. Contact with nature, silence, being with oneself, listening to music, dedicating time to oneself, are the possibilities that one sometimes allows oneself and that are closest to an idea of pleasure, as well as, on the other hand, the pleasure of endless movement, of spontaneity and freedom of action and speech is hindered
Save (just in case)
Ability to save and accumulate both objects that can be useful and experiences. To keep to oneself, a kind of greed, to have more to feel that one can always count on additional inner resources to draw on
So in summary, if you have read Naranjo's work (specifically Envidia Abnegados, Odiadores Y Melancolios), I think it is only rational to assume that First Physics (1F) and Third Emotion (3E) make the most sense for the Conservation E4. This is someone who feels insecure in being emotionally vulnerable to others, so instead, they take on as much suffering/resistance as possible in order to keep people from leaving them. To the SP4, this is the solution that yields the greatest amount of return; which indicates a higher level of confidence in the physical realm, than the outwardly emotional.
As a result, the SP4 is going to appear more emotionally repressed, because this creates the resistance they actively seek out, in order to prove their worth. Envy, resentment, etc; these emotions are feelings are buried deep-down, and while often explored in indirect ways (often through exploration of the arts), they are hardly ever touched upon directly. Again, expressing these feelings openly leaves them open to outside opinion and interpretation, which in the eyes of the SP4, leaves them open to possible attack and rejection.
Of course, this does not mean the SP4 is going to obviously monotone all the time. These types can have a sense of humor (which is often described by Naranjo as possessing a sense of "irony"), and they can appear to be relatively well-adjusted externally. But inwardly, there is going to be an ever present critic that carefully filters their words and actions, to make it so that the people close to them will not reject them in disgust. The SP4 will almost always submit themselves to the "other" in an effort to gain their love, which often means censoring their true feelings. Envy and resentment is then generated, when the SP4 observes others acting authentically, and recieving the love they desperately crave with seemingly little effort or trial on their part.
This is not to say that 1E types are always outwardly emotional, as that is not true. 1E, in the same vein as 3E, appears outwardly introverted. To the 1E, their emotions are strictly for the individual itself. Outward reactions to their emotions are disregarded, and ignored.
However, the difference between First Emotion and Third Emotion is their reaction to emotional spillover. This is key. If spillover occurs, the 1E type is going to be self-confident. They don't need to prove anything, and it's the world's problem to deal with. Whereas with 3E, their confidence immediately evaporates as soon as their inner emotional world comes into contact with others.
This is because the Conservation E4 is inherently insecure about how their emotions are going to be percieved by others, because being authentically expressive creates vulnerability and dependency. It leaves you exposed to attack and unwanted influence. So to the SP4, why be vulnerable and expressive? Why show how you truly feel is people can possibly reject you? Wouldn't it be smarter to just prove your worth and to demonstrate how resilinet you are? Wouldn't that be easier for people to begin loving you? If you can't even do that, why would people ever stick around?
This insecurity around expressing their emotions (and their inclination to express themselves through indirect means) makes it very unlikely for an SP4 to be a 1E type IMO. Additionally, Third Physics (3F) does not make a whole lot of sense for a type that actively seeks out pain, to the extent that Naranjo compares the SP4s fixation on tenacity to a form of self-flaggelation.
The confidence that their body and mind can take whatever punishment life can dish out, indicates a self-confidence (and relative insensitivity) in the physical realm that is not present with 3F types.



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